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INTERVIEW WITH BOB NAVIS

By RICK BERG

Why were you fired?

When I learned that my contract wasn't going to be renewed at St. Francis, Rev. Thomas Martin (pastor of the St. Francis parish] told me that my relationship with my lover Jeff presented a problem, that it was against the teachings of the Church, and that he was worried about public reaction, about what I was going to tell the students, and a thousand other things.

He said that he had consulted Rev. John Murphy [Superintendent of Schools for the Cleveland Diocese], who advised that my contract not be renewed. Murphy has since told me that he was not a part of that decision.

I kept my jobs as organist and director of St. Francis Community Theatre. I can't say I understand the rationale. Martin didn't want me teaching in, the school, but he did want me to continue as organist. In the Universe Bulletin (a local Catholic periodical] he said that his concern was with the children, that I wouldn't be an acceptable role model. But my work in the parish as musical director and theatre director he saw as being less with the children. In reality, it was a slap in the face and then I was allowed to keep a crumb.

I had been living my life honestly and openly, and that life was not appreciated by the Church. It was in contradiction to Church teaching and it threatened the Church's own stance on sexual issues. The Churh likes to appear to have all the answers, and when you talk about an issue where so many arguments can be made that the Church's teaching is backward and still in the Middle Ages and does not work in people's lives, that forces them to look at an issue that they're hiding behind.

In the name of that teaching, they're being unloving

they are perpetuating violence, hatred, and stereotyping. When the Church looks at this, they will have to admit that they are wrong and have been wrong for a long time.

It has been said that you could have signed a contract to teach at Erieview High School for the 1985-86 school year. Is that true?

When I lost my St. Francis teaching position, the hospitalization benefits I had were cancelled. The Diocese has a policy that there are no benefits if you're not full-time.

You were full-time because you had two part-time jobs?

Yes. So when I lost the St. Francis job I was parttime. I was working at Erieview with no hospitali-

Gay Peoples Chronicle

zation or benefits, and I thought that was really unfair after 17 years in the Diocese. I thought the Diocese should have been moved to bend their policy, and at least give me some help on hospitalization.

There were a number of things we were trying to settle. I was not satisfied with the [music] curriculum. I said that unless the music department 5 changed, I didn't want to come back next year. We needed more people help with the job.

At the beginning of May we had reached the point whers all of this was reworked Sr. Mary Rita [Crookston, principal of Erieview High School) approved a new cur-

Jeff Gerhardstein (1.) and Bob Navis (r.)

She asked if it were true that we were planning a wedding ceremony. We asked where she had heard that, and she refused to say. She said that the nature of our relationship was getting more public as time went on and that I wasn't being quiet about it.

Then she said, "I really don't know how we can possibly offer you a contract for next year." There was only one more meeting after that day: the final Friday when I was told I wouldn't be back.

Do you think you went too public with your sexual orientation?

How is our wedding public? I haven't told the kids at school about it. In terms of my workplace, my wedding wasn't public at all. Probably four members of the faculty of 30 knew about my

"When I really needed to feel strong support [from Dignity], I did not feel any support. I feel mistrusted by them and I don't know why they mistrust me....I've heard things from people that make me feel that there are erroneous stories being passed around."

riculum I had worked out. She said she wanted me to come back, and that it would set the school back 3 years if I were to leave now..

In the end, the only thing keeping me from signing the contract with Erieview was the fact that I did not have hospitalization benefits Also, I wanted to know what the waters were like at the Diocese because I didn't want to sign to work all year, only to be fired in the middle of it because I'm

gay.

Was there actually a contract on the table at this point that you could have signed?

No. At this point I arranged a meeting with Sr. Christine Vladimiroff [Secretary of Education for the Cleveland Diocese], who had been looking into my St. Francis termination, at my Jeff and I went request.

down together.

relationship with Jeff. I made no public announcement about it at all.

At the final meeting Christine [Vladimiroff] said that because of the prayer vigil, I had taken such a public stance that they had no other choice but to let me go. But why was I let go at St. Francis last year? There was no prayer vigil or TV involved there. Why was I told a week and a half before the vigil that I probably wouldn't be renewed? That's bullshit. It started a long time ago.

You were not actually a certified teacher, were you?

No. I was approached to teach at St. Francis and Erieview. I had been involved in music and theatre since high school. Officially I think i wes glassified as a teacher's aide, but in reality I was a teacher and was paid according to the scale for teachers. I have

July 1985

about two years of college courses, but I've studied piano, voice, and music theory for over ten years. This was never brought up as a reason for my being fired.

Your wedding was originally scheduled to be at St. Philomena. Why was that changed?

Rev. Joe Lang [pastor of St. Philomena parish] was concerned about whether we were being discreet enough; but decided we could use the church. He told me right off the bat that he would not officiate at this wedding. He had done others before, but this is very different.

I went to one at St. Philomena, a full-blown wedding ceremony for Cindy and Capie, who's now the president of Dignity. I did the music for that wedding. There were 35 or 40 people there. Now that wasn't very private but it was all gay.

Our celebration will have 175 people, and they will be gay and straight. Our families are all involved. I guess this is something Joe Lang] was never asked to do before, and he was very afraid of the ramifications. So many people are involved in this that chances are word would get down to the Diocese. The chances of that happening with our ceremony are much greater than they had been with any of the others. He's worried about his position at the Diocese, because he's not sup-

ned about it alread

y. He felt that if there were one more incident, that would be the end of him.

We talked about his fears. I said, "We're taking a lot of risks, too, and we've come through a hell of a journey." I had already lost my job at St. Francis. I said, "You understand why we're doing this. You have to make the decision if you're willing to take the risk with me. But we want to be married in the Catholic Church, and we want to use St. Philomena."

We didn't hear another word from him until this crisis came about. Then Joe called and said he couldn't offer the church because it was getting more public by the minute.

How do you feel about the Catholic Church?

My church has said to me: "We don't care. We don't want to know about you as a gay person and what your Journey is, what your experfence is. We don't want to know about your relationship with this man and what it means to you in your life."

The Church keeps Dignity as a second-class organization, clothed in secrecy. And it's an understood condition that Dignity can exist as long as it keeps quiet; that the Bishop doesn't have to show that he affirms it. The message is: "We want to maintain this wall between you and us, and don't want to know you as people."

That does a lot of damage. The expectation of secrecy allows stereotyping, hatred, and violence. That's what P. 10, col. 1